Roissy takes it a step too far

In one of his recent articles Roissy talks about dating down. He is of course totally right that if you date down you need less game. But he talks about women’s beauty like it’s the only thing that matters at all – the be-all, end-all characteristic that defines everything relationship-wise. In this case the opponents of game might be right: he recognizes no other value than pussy.

In my personal life I value other things too. Maybe I’m not alpha enough but I like to avoid unnecessary conflicts, I like my LTR to be calm and relaxed and I don’t like the idea of being constantly alert for shit tests and such. For this I’m more than willing to date down a point or two. And I don’t think I’m less of a man because of this. I’ve learned long ago that being satisfied with what I have brings me closer to happiness than chasing dreams could.

One important reminder: I’m talking about LTRs here. Purely sexual adventures are a different topic.

I have two main objections against his post. First of all, two points is not the colossal difference Roissy describes it to be. He paints things like an 8 is an angel but a 6 is a warpig. Bullshit. And a two point difference can be offset with willingness, of which I must say that in general a lower market value girl will be a lot more willing to do anything for you.

The other objection is that he downplays the very real advantages of dating down and where he mentions them he acts like they are things to be ashamed of.

“Date a warpig! She will put up with EVERYTHING and ANYTHING and never bitch once. (…) I know men who slum it for this very reason, and while I personally find that lifestyle incomprehensible and utterly distasteful — I mean, you may as well become a monk since you’ll be living a life completely devoid of any beauty or hedonistic pleasure — it does lend itself to a certain simplicity in managing affairs and obtaining the necessary freedom to pursue alternative pleasures.”

This is very “poetic” but extremely exaggerated. If you’re an 8, is dating a 6 distasteful? I don’t think so. And I’m positively sure that dating down is not devoid of hedonistic pleasure. (Like Ferdinand Bardamu said, sex skill is probably inversely proportional to market value.) Also, I think a GF without bitchiness or having the freedom to pursue alternative pleasures is actually very nice.

The thing to understand here is that the hypergamous instincts of women never stop working in an LTR so if your market value is the same as your GF’s then you will have to game her 24/7 if you don’t want her to think about dumping you for better prospects. If you’re both 7s she will always feel deep down that she could “do better”. If you don’t have proper game this is a recipe for disaster and the divorce rate shows this quite clearly.

There are two options for any man: game 24/7 or date down. It’s very upsetting since we all dream about shacking up with a perfect 10, but even if you can grab one her instincts will never be satisfied and the relationship will be anything but pleasant. The sad reality is that no HB10 will settle for an average guy. So if you date up you will most probably live in the eye of a shit storm. If you date at your level everything depends on the personality of your woman; if she’s anything like average western women you’re fucked. You will be shit tested a lot and most probably dumped somewhere along the way. If you date down your GF won’t be the most beautyful woman you could ever score but you can live like a king. You just have to avoid doing serious mistakes and mild betaization attempts, which can be comfortably done with basic game. [As a side note, if you’re the type to do that you can date hotter babes on the side. Having a good-natured but not-so-spectacular woman for an LTR does not mean you have to give up on hot babes.]

What Roissy says assumes that it’s easy to find girls with good personalities regardless of their sexual market value but it’s a common observation that the higher we look the worse the average temperament. Of course there are exceptions but I won’t keep looking for the perfect 10 with the devoted, kind and mature personality I like in women. I found a woman with such a personality and I don’t mind dating down a point or two for her. She’s not a 10, not even close, but I was never happier and that’s what matters to me. (And I’m not a 10 either :)

Roissy paints dating down as something distasteful and appalling but I see nothing wrong with “settling” for a lot more pleasant and comfortable relationship with a girl a point or two below the best you could score for a one night stand. And all this is even more important if you marry that girl and/or you plan to have children with her. I’d rather live a pleasant life with a 6 than be nagged to death by an 8. Yes, with tight game I could handle that 8 but I don’t want to be on my toes all the time. Sometimes I’m careless, sometimes I’m lazy and I don’t want to lose my LTR because of that.

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16 Responses to Roissy takes it a step too far

  1. NMH says:

    Good article, completely agree with it. Im probably a high 7 (?), my gf is a high 6/low 7. Sometimes I have an urge to find an 8, but at the same time realize the 8 will probably have a more difficult personality that my present gf in an LTR. Not having to deal with shit tests and otherwise difficult behavior is a HUGE plus.

  2. Pingback: Roissy takes it a step too far | Deansdale's Blog - Dating Tips and Tricks

  3. Anya says:

    “Having a good-natured but not-so-spectacular woman for an LTR does not mean you have to give up on hot babes.”

    Do you advocate this for married men as well? Is it acceptable for women to have hot dudes on the side while in an LTR with a not-so-spectacular man?

    But very big of you to toss a few emotional crumbs to your “girlfriend” even though she’s not a 10.

  4. Deansdale says:

    Do you advocate this for married men as well?
    Let me quote… myself: “if you’re the type to do that”. I think it’s pretty clear what I mean.

    I’m not here to judge people. I talk about my thoughts and experiences. How they use this – if at all – is up to them.
    Also I’m not a jealous type so I don’t see cheating as something “big”. It happens regardless of people admitting it or not. Our desires and instincts are wired that way. When I was a lot younger I considered myself an honest man (actually I was a confused and naive white knight) and I thought I will never cheat. It turned out I cheated on almost every GF I ever had. But I met women with similar pasts so it’s not a male-specific character fault but a common feature of people. And it’s my observation that if all the pretentious do-gooders think about it really hard it turns out that they have cheated on their significant others too, but they usually find some stupid excuse for it to keep their conscience clean. They come up with shit like “it was an accident”, or “I couldn’t help it, I was overwhelmed” or “it was not really cheating because [insert bullshit here]”. Chances are you too have cheated on someone. Care to admit it?

    Nowadays I follow my own rules about this, which basically amounts to that when I’m in an LTR I don’t actively seek other women but when the opportunity rises I usually don’t hide from it. But I make it clear to my GF at the beginning of the LTR that I am this way and it’s her choice to accept me as is, or she can sail for sunnier waters.
    As I said a couple of days ago, it’s an unavoidable fact in life that shit happens, and most of the time you can only “avoid” good things. Passing up an opportunity to make love to a beautiful woman is avoiding a good thing and I’m not my own enemy to do such a stupid thing. Life is short and I have enough problems already, so I grab good things when I see them.

    Is it acceptable for women to have hot dudes on the side while in an LTR with a not-so-spectacular man?
    Most of them do that without my blessing anyway, so what I think doesn’t matter. My “official” standpoint is women’s cheating is more serious because it can result in paternity fraud; my personal standpoint is that if I’m not faithful then I don’t have the right to ask her to be faithful.

    But very big of you to toss a few emotional crumbs to your “girlfriend”
    It’s a well kept secret that in actual reality the different feelings you feel for different people are not “linked together” in any way. So my answer to your accusation is that my GF enjoys the full range and power of my emotions and this doesn’t change if/when I have sex with other women.

  5. Anya says:

    “my personal standpoint is that if I’m not faithful then I don’t have the right to ask her to be faithful”

    Fair enough; thanks for your response. I have nothing against polyamory when all parties are in agreement.

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  8. Jean says:

    You left out one problem – the woman who is a 4, but thinks she’s a 10. Problem being, even though you could do better, you STILL need to game her 24/7.
    Worse, this is not always evident during dating, even if you’ve been dating her for months.

  9. infiniium says:

    Why the would you date a 4 who’s bitching like a 10? Next!

  10. measure of devotion says:

    “You should punish in the same manner those who commit crimes with those who accuse falsely.”
    — Thucydides

  11. Jean says:

    Because she was convenient, willing, and a 6 or so when we met.
    She went down two notches physically, and started talking.

  12. infiniium says:

    Damn, don’t you hate it when that happens? :)

  13. Deansdale says:

    You left out one problem – the woman who is a 4, but thinks she’s a 10.
    My answer is Roissy’s latest post:
    The Problem With Women Is Too Much Self-Esteem

  14. Justin says:

    If you really think your LTR/wife’s behavior depends solely, or even mainly, on your Game, you are in a for a rude awakening. There is no altering someone’s basic personality and character.

  15. Deansdale says:

    Women’s basic personality – like their sexuality – is much more “fluid” than men’s. What you do or how you act has a huge effect on how she behaves. The same woman can be a bitch to one guy and an angel to another. This is much less typical of men.
    Of course she has a personality of her own but how she will behave towards you is still rather flexible and depends on how you act, and this is where game comes in.

  16. Cbc says:

    Here the truth. I am around. A 5 maybe a 6 women who are in the 6-7 area play games with guys in my area..i love seeing them try to get the male 8-9 THEN next week their drunk and crying to me.soooo i see the. Game burning those useing it but not thinking it thru as she shes wanting me and im happier at 4-5 i dont get smoked there and they stay around for the rides.

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